Showing Up Whole

Finding Harmony: Dr. Terrie Lewine on Mastering Nonviolent Communication

• Christina Fletcher/ Terrie Lewine • Season 4 • Episode 12

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Struggling to Find Harmony in Your Relationships?

Unlock the secrets to better communication and deeper connections with Christina and her guest relationship coach Terrie Lewine. 
In this insightful episode, Terrie shares invaluable strategies rooted in nonviolent communication to transform your interactions.


Transform Your Interactions with Nonviolent Communication

Dr. Terrie Lewine, an expert in relationship and communication coaching, offers practical strategies for expressing your needs effectively. Learn to distinguish between observations, feelings, and needs to foster genuine, solutions-oriented dialogues with partners, family members, colleagues, and even strangers.


Foster Genuine Dialogues

Terrie’s expertise guides you in balancing personal responsibility with emotional impact. Discover how releasing blame and the need to be right can lead to more equitable and empathetic connections. Gain insights into managing your emotions through self-awareness and reflection, ensuring healthier interactions in both public and personal spheres.


Embrace Needs-Based Communication

Explore the profound concept of needs-based communication, particularly in handling criticism or complaints. Terrie provides actionable techniques to interpret underlying messages in challenging situations and emphasizes the importance of self-responsibility in meeting your needs.


Navigate Modern Social Dynamics with Empathy

Learn to set personal limits and recognize when to distance yourself from toxic relationships. Gain the tools to foster healthier connections and improve your overall well-being by embracing the equal importance of everyone’s needs.

Join Christina and  Dr. Terrie Lewine for a transformative journey into the heart of nonviolent communication, and start building more harmonious relationships today.

Learn more about, and from Dr. Terrie Lewine over at www.getbacktolife.org
for more resources to continue your journey toward more meaningful and fulfilling relationships.

Dr. Terrie Lewine mixes the work of Non violent communication with their deep knowledge in biochemistry, neurobiology and somatics. Their gift is to guide people to

Christina Fletcher is a Spiritual Alignment coach, energy worker, author, speaker and host of the podcast Showing Up Whole.
She specialises in practical spirituality and integrating inner work with outer living, so you can get self development off of the hobby shelf and integrated as a powerful fuel to your life.

Through mindset, spiritual connection, intuitive guidance, manifestation, and mindfulness techniques Christina helps her clients overcome overwhelm and shame to find a place of flow, ease, and deep heart-centered connection.
Christina has been a spiritual alignment coach, healer and spiritually aware parent coach for 7 years and trained in Therapeutic Touch 8 years ago. She is also a meditation teacher and speaker.
For more information please visit her website www.spirituallyawareliving.com

Want to uncover where you need the most energy alignment?
Take her new Energy Alignment Quiz to identify which of your energetic worlds (mind, body, heart or spirit) needs aligning the most!

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Speaker 1:

And hello everyone. Welcome back to Showing Up Whole the place where we discuss balance in mind, body, heart and spirit in every aspect of our lives. And today we are going to be talking about a very important aspect of our lives not just the wholeness of ourselves, but in relationships, how we show up in those relationships and how to get the most best communication within those relationships so that those in those relationships, and how to get the most best communication within those relationships so that those in the relationships can also be whole in themselves. We are talking to relationship coach and communication coach, terry Lewine, who is here to discuss nonviolent communication and all sorts of beautiful relationship magic. And hello, terry, it's great to have you on the show.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here and I hope that the information I can share will be super helpful and practical.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure it will be. We are all about practicalities here. We are all about making sure that things are tangible and usable right in the moment, because there's no time to waste. So let's talk relationships. Where do we even begin and how do we dive into the deeper understanding of the role communication plays within that, I think? I think so many people are are feeling at odds in relationships these days. What relationships are we talking about? Are we talking about relationships as a whole or relationships just partnership relationships? Where are we at?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, as most people say, your relationship with yourself and then relationships with your partner. I do do a lot of coaching of couples, but I also go into organizations. How do you do team building? How do you talk to people? So how do you talk to people so that they understand what you're actually asking for? And that starts with you knowing exactly what, why and what you're asking for, and so being quite intentional about that. Whether it's with your children, your partner, your mom, you know the person in the street or the clerk. So really, this is a robust work for everyone. Oh, I love it.

Speaker 1:

I love it, for everyone I love it. I love it because I mean here on this podcast I do a lot of different conversations and just me talking alone about actual intention and and and really knowing what you're going in to say. And sometimes people have said to me like how do you actually just jump on in front of a microphone and actually just start speaking? And and it is about knowing what you want to say, what, what you need to say. I know we'd mentioned just before coming on that you know talking about what you need, which is such a foundational point of nonviolent communication. So why don't we start there? How do you know what you want to say? How do you?

Speaker 2:

know what you want to say. Great, and I think this. It sounds so easy. It's like, yes, I should, but we don't.

Speaker 2:

We've literally been trained to track outside of ourselves from very, very young for the happiness of the other, which, as a kid, as a young person, as a baby and a kid, it's sort of how we stay safe, but as an adult, it is not an effective strategy to get our needs met. But we have to learn to track inside. So, for example, if you're upset, I might have feelings about that, and what are they. So am I trying to make you happy? No, have feelings about that, and what are they. So am I trying to make you happy? No, if you so. Needs are basically the cause of all of our feelings. So if you're saying something and I'm unhappy, it's because I'm reminded of a need of mine that is not getting met in this very moment. So what we're going to do, and what I help people do, is really pull apart you for me. And what is it that is causing my distress or actually my happiness? You know we put our happiness on other people too, and neither one is great. So hopefully, in our talk today, we'll be able to distinguish the strategy to meet the need, which is asking you to do something or asking you to say something. From the need that will get met if you say yes to my request. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

So there's a simple structure in nonviolent communication, which is you observe what happened, being able to distinguish what actually happened. What did you say or do that has my attention, not what I think you said or did you know when you were angry? It's like no. When you talked louder than I wanted you to. Or when you stomped up the stairs, and it's like no, when I heard you come up the stairs. Mostly because we want to, in our communication, have a starting point that we agree, because if I start with you stumped up the stairs, no, I didn't. If you did, no, I didn't, that's it. We'll never stop there.

Speaker 2:

So then we want to be able to say our feelings, which is also very hard. Most people say I feel like and then they tell a good story I feel like you shouldn't have blah, blah, blah, which there's no feeling words in there, and it's because of the need that I'm longing for. So if you said, hey, I'm going out with friends and I'm not inviting you, I might feel scared for the quality of our connection. I might want some assurance, which is a need. I might want companionship, I don't want to be home alone, and so then I can start to talk, make a request or an offer that will help me meet the need of companionship or trust, or whatever that is.

Speaker 1:

You know, the thing that really stands out in this and listening to you talk about this and I've had a couple of conversations, people, about non-violent communication before but it's really standing out with listening to you talk about this and and that is that it's so solution focused. This is a, this is a pathway of people who want good communication because it creates solutions and it's very practical.

Speaker 2:

It is. I am not a therapist. We, you know, we can go into the why. Well, my mother did this or my, you know I grew up here. Some trauma, which is important stuff, yeah, but really it's just about what do I do now? What are the practical little things that I can do right now that will make an actual pretty big shift in either my own personal experience of the world and my experience of my relationships?

Speaker 1:

Well, and what's fascinating about it too is, I think, so often I think we've all been in a situation where we tell the more dramatized version of like I felt you were stomping up the stairs, which is such a great example, but we do that for the need to feel justified or the need to feel like the other person's wrong, and you can't have a solution-focused, balanced communication, relationship, communicated relationship, when you're determined to have one person right and one person wrong.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. I have an objective sheet that I hand out or give to clients, dropping out of shame and blame and moralistic judgment and finding fault and dropping into trying to find the humanness. What needs was that other person right? What needs were they trying to meet when they did the thing that I don't like? Yeah, unless I can really be curious, so it's dropping. We will never stop fighting. You will never end a conflict if you're trying to find fault Because it's like, well, if you didn't do that, I wouldn't have done this.

Speaker 2:

And it's the ultimate in not being responsible for the experience that I'm having and it's like yeah well, there's certain things Everyone would agree that they're bad and it's great, yeah, well, there's certain things everyone would agree that are bad and it's great, but it doesn't get through. But it will not end the conflict. Yes, exactly, it won't conflict. So you must drop out of finding fault, deciding who's right and who's wrong, or moralistic judgment Good, bad, right, wrong and into curiosity Huh, what were you hoping for? Because I feel awful right now. Is that what you were hoping for? No, of course not, although sometimes people will say yes.

Speaker 2:

We won't talk about those, but also when they say yes, it's even underneath it. There's a precious need there, well and you have to go.

Speaker 1:

Well, why? Why would that person? What is the motivation? I have to say that this is such an important conversation for the world we live in now because it feels like like we have things like cancel culture, we have things like people. I mean, I look at it with my daughters, who are teens, and I look at their situations that they experience online and I just go. It's all very quick. People communicate now in this blaming exchange and that's what everyone's brains are. Almost it feels like everyone's being programmed in order to just have this well, who's right, who's wrong, who's right, who's wrong? And that's. It's like flashcards. And the minute you say, well, I think that person's right, then it's this torrid of kind of justification I love. I mean, that's something that I naturally step away from and I'm always looking at going. Oh, but why? And what is that person? I drive a lot of people crazy. So I love how what you're describing is truly releasing that sense of needing to blame and that sense of needing to be right as well, because those are just the same balance.

Speaker 2:

And I also think it's not so empowering. It's how we lose our power when we give someone else the power, and I just think it's not true. We do not hurt other people's feelings and other people do not hurt ours. It is it is my own sort of meaning that I make from what you do and say that has me feeling hurt.

Speaker 2:

So I have it as a we thing, like it's not. I used to kind of have it like it's just me and how I feel, which is true, but if you didn't do and say the things you did, I wouldn't be having it. So if we're in a relationship, it matters that my feelings matter to you, but you are not responsible for them, and the more that we get I want you to matter. So I'll say it another way especially in the current culture that we're in, People think we should be responsible for the impact of what I say and do, and I am close to that, but it's a very nuanced thing.

Speaker 2:

I will be responsible to the impact, but not for it, because I can't possibly know what your history is and what's going to upset you or not upset you. Once you're upset, I will care and I will talk to you about what needs are alive for you, what happened for you when I did or said the thing that you didn't like. I'm right here, I am not going anywhere. I'm up for that conversation, but when you blame me for how you feel, we'll never get out of that, never, and so it's just not useful.

Speaker 1:

That's such a powerful nuance I've got it. That's. That's so incredibly powerful. Because this we are evolving in communication in this very strange way, where it that's exactly what it is is everyone wanting other people to claim responsibility for how you feel, and it doesn't. It doesn't work that way. Now, in that rather triggered society that we live in, yes, how do we show up in that? How do we actually find that space of saying actually, I'm no longer responsible for how you feel, but I am showing up for how you feel. And how do we?

Speaker 2:

find that within ourselves, absolutely In our personal relationships. I think it's much easier because we're right here and we can talk about it and people are more invested In the larger culture where people are sort of the consent culture and all that kind of stuff, where people are taking their power back. I really I just wrote a blog on it about the difference between taking power and equity as needs, and so I think we're in a moment of time in our growth as a culture where people are taking their power back. Disempowered people are taking their power back, but it's inside the blame game. I was just going to say that, yes, and so if someone calls somebody out in my work as a mediator, if I'm doing that, and someone says, well, this person did something to me, and it's like but I don't ever want to talk to them, and if you do, then you're siding with the people who've always had the power and it's like right, but you're blaming them, and so it's like I think there's something different. We just need to be present to the fact that people are taking their power back and blaming you for the loss of it for however many years or centuries it is. So it's different than yes, I can understand my privilege and my role and the history of my people, or you know whether, whatever the people are and you know, just make room for it and just really hold space for how painful it has been.

Speaker 2:

And when people don't have power and they're just taking it back, I don't think we're really going until we move into that. What do we ask for? What do we offer? Going until we move into that, what do we ask for? What do we offer? How do we get equity? And, uh, stop blaming, let's just say women blaming men. You know, until we wanted together, you know, all came up in this culture of inequity. And how do we now what? How do we change the system? It's a bigger, bigger question now. So I just want to put that out there In the role of my family and raising children. How do I? It's much easier to raise your children, weaving your own needs in equal to theirs, which I also think is a challenge, because a lot of parents don't want to. Oh well, their needs are more important than mine.

Speaker 1:

Well, they're not.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, I totally. Kids needs are not, you know, they're not more important, but they're equally important. So your need for nourishment, your need for well-being and your need for creativity is equal to my need for those things. And so how are we, from birth, going to navigate? Sharing a house together and a home and a relationship, and so raising kids who know how to navigate my needs as just another human being that happens to be older, and given birth equal to their own?

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, and it seems like these mirror each other, so that you have the relationships at home where you do.

Speaker 1:

I think at home we have a tendency to put other people's needs above our own, and we don't, and so we put those other people's needs above our own and we'll sacrifice our needs for the other people.

Speaker 1:

However, out in the world, there's a tendency to put our needs above other people's.

Speaker 1:

So there's this interesting where so people have a tendency to want the blame outside the home on other people not listening to their needs, and yet within the home, we have a tendency to deny our needs. And so there's this interesting something that came up in a conversation a few weeks ago I can't even remember if it was on the podcast or not, so I apologize to anyone listening to this but this concept of autonomy for everyone to have their own autonomy and it's something that I've been really looking at just as a deep dive for myself personally, of actually leaning into what that really means, because I think that changes as children grow up. We have a tendency to learn how to give more and more of the power to to their own autonomy, of them claiming their own needs themselves and giving them the tools to say, yeah, you know what. Whatever your needs are, tell me and we'll deal with it, but don't ask me to actually just be guessing these all the time and running around trying to meet them anymore. They're yours.

Speaker 2:

Right and yes, they're your needs, and we want to train them up to be autonomous, and for me, I think it's something that we don't do as parents.

Speaker 2:

We tell them oh well, you know we have to leave at 8 o'clock in the morning and we just say we have to. We make a random rule, rather than you know what? I have work and my job is to feed you, yep. And so there is a thing called protective use of force or practical use of force. And so with a kid, yeah, you want to play in the street, but my I'm it's just not going to happen on my watch. Your safety is more important than play, and so I can navigate your play. And, yeah, I just think it's really important for me to own, even in my kids' relationship. Yeah, I don't, you know, what's important to you is important to me.

Speaker 2:

It may be that you're the fact that you're upset that you didn't get the red balloon. You get to have your feelings, because for a four-year-old, not getting a red balloon is pretty much it Right, and so, of course, you're sad, rather than me saying you know, just get over it. No, yes, you're sad, and I'll listen for 10 minutes because I care, and then, because my job is to nourish the family, I'm going to go in the kitchen and cook dinner, and you can be sad or not sad, but I don't have to be sad because you're sad. Yeah, that's yours. You can feel sad, I can feel totally fine and I still care. It's this piece of how do I care, without changing how you feel.

Speaker 1:

I love it. Yep, absolutely. In order to show up in that, though, do you find that your needs have to be met, and is it a question of you meeting your own needs in order to show up in that?

Speaker 2:

The way that I see it is again, it's a negotiation. I need to know what my needs are, because, again, we conflate usually strategies to meet the needs with the needs themselves. So I might say, listen, you know, the only way I can be happy is if you come home at nine o'clock and it's like, well, no, why? Because I want to feel safe. Maybe safety is the need, maybe companionship is the need, maybe consideration is a need, and it's like, well, what are all the three to twelve other ways that I could have those needs met other than this one strategy? Because if I only have one strategy like I can only make it mean you care about me. If you come home at nine, well then I'm going to be hyper focused on that and we're going to argue about it. Whether you, you do care about it or you do care about me, you just can't get home at nine or don't want to, like even don't want to, and so how do we work? It's like I don't want to come home at nine, but I do care. So how do we talk about this in a way that all of our needs get met? So in relationship, they all matter equally, and we just talk and talk until we can find strategies that meet them. And here's another piece you don't have to be the one that does something. I could ask my friends if I want companionship and you're going to be home at 10, not nine, maybe I go out with friends, maybe I call my mom, maybe I play do game night, maybe I go to a class, so my needs for companionship are met and you are free. And I want to talk about this because you asked me about autonomy, you know. So your autonomy needs are met. You can go out and do your work or whatever that is that has you out of the house till 10.

Speaker 2:

I also want to say that autonomy is a need, and, but equal to autonomy, interdependence. We are pack animals. Humans are pack animals, so we are, at the same moment, interdependent and autonomous. And finding that because you know we're separate and so, and we live in a modern culture, so yeah it. You know it looks like we're autonomy. Independence, rather than interdependence, is valued in our culture so much.

Speaker 2:

But here's the thing, when I look at that and think, oh, I'm independent because I can, you know, I don't need you to get my shirt or whatever it's like, well, I'm not independent. I just have money, like one of my needs is met because there's people who grow the cotton right, probably in some other country. There's the truck, you know. There's the people who harvest it, there's the people who turn it into thread, there's the people who weave it into a shirt, there's the truck driver who, or the boat, you know, however, got here, there's thousands of people right that make it so that I can have a piece of paper in front of me or a T-shirt that I'm wearing Right, and I'm dependent on all of them, all of them. We just don't acknowledge it because we don't see them and we pretend that having money, money is a strategy to meet a need for security and well-being and safety. But money in and of itself is a strategy to meet a need for security and well-being and safety. But money in and of itself is a strategy.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's brilliant Because I think so many people immediately, when they think needs, these are the things that they think of. They think of needs of stability. Oh, I need money.

Speaker 2:

Security would be the need, financial security or security so I might have a farm and that's how I get my food, and so I need less money.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, all right. So let's turn this around a little bit, as reflected for anyone listening to this how do you figure out what you need, or do your needs? Actually, let me rephrase that because do your needs, do you find that your needs are over overarching theme of an of a needs, or do the needs change depending on the relationship?

Speaker 2:

I have a list of needs or needs cards. We don't have a picture. I was going to hold them up, so there's. I think the first thing is that we again, like I said earlier, we track outside ourselves for for our wellbeing because we're a disconnected culture.

Speaker 2:

So the first thing is to take a pause and it's like well, what's important to me? So, if I'm having a feeling, whether it's joy but people don't usually get in fights when they're joyous, but they do put their happiness on somebody else and then when they leave, they're devastated. But we're just going to put that aside I'm upset and I have it that you shouldn't have done the thing. Well, that's a very unpowerful place to come from. So why am I upset? And the first question is okay, just to take a pause, what's important to me? How do I know what's alive in me that has me in distress? So if you said I will be over at three and make you dinner, and it's now and you didn't come, and it's now and you didn't come, I'm in distress. Why? Well, trust, dependability, reliability, maybe quality of connection. There are needs that are coming to the top of my mind nourishment, if you were making me dinner and I wasn't feeling well, and you know, I really needed someone to make me dinner.

Speaker 2:

Those are the needs, right? So you look at the list in the beginning, because we are not really, uh, aware of what they are, we don't really track inside, and so for some people, especially me, when I started learning this, I'm like wow, these words are foreign to me, they're literally foreign. It's like no, I'm so upset it can't be companionship.

Speaker 1:

No, you're a blah blah blah.

Speaker 2:

And you know, the whole thing is what's important to me. And once I know that, then I can make a list of 12 ways, or five ways, that I can have this experience that I say I'm longing for. So one of them, let's say it's respect, so one of them.

Speaker 2:

Let's say it's respect, and I want respect. In the way you're talking to me is you know you're cursing me out or you're not looking at me, or you're hanging up on me, and so I'm longing for respect inside our relationship. There's two pieces to that. Yes, I can ask you for something. Could you talk quieter? Could you come over? Could we really talk about what happened between us? So I would have respect, but I can also.

Speaker 2:

One thing that people tend not to track on is what they say and do. Is it generating respect? Is what I'm saying? I say it's important to me, but am I cursing you out? Am I blaming you? Is that respect? Am I blaming you? Is that respect? Am I generating in the things I say and do? So taking care of our own side is so important and we forget. We just are out there. You need to do this so I can be happy, and it's like well, I need to, you know.

Speaker 2:

Let's say, I'm in a personal relationship and I really value honesty, and you tell me something that I don't want to hear, and I start telling you about how much I don't want to hear it in ways that are gleamy, and it's like well, am I inviting honesty? Can I be upset about what I'm hearing and equally joyous that you're willing to tell me, because that's what I've asked you for. I've asked you for honesty and I am grateful that you feel confident in our relationship to tell me your truth. Now it's my job to hold it yeah, like wow, thank you for telling me that. I'm really celebrating that we have honesty. Then I can say wow, you know, that is great. And, without blaming you for what you said, can I say listen, I want to tell you what that was hard for me to hear and I would love to tell you what's alive for me in what you shared I I feel scared. I feel scared about you know, what you might do, given what you told me.

Speaker 1:

It's a powerful time and the way things have been just isn't working anymore. If you've been feeling disjointed, overwhelmed or scattered, you're not alone. Many are feeling that there's a feeling of needing more. Something's missing. Many are feeling that there's a feeling of needing more Something's missing. What this feeling tells you is that it's time to claim your inner self and step away from the stories you've been taught to follow. It's time to listen to your heart, to heal your hurts and learn to lean into the universe. Having your back, it's time to take all of that self-help book knowledge and embody it, assimilate it and make it your own.

Speaker 1:

I'm Christina Fletcher and, as a spiritual alignment coach at Energy Healer, I can help you take spirituality off of the hobby shelf and into your everyday, sometimes messy life so you can truly show up whole. Through coaching, courses, books and more, I make sure you have practical tools to support you through these challenging times. To learn more, check out my website spirituallyawarelivingcom, where you'll find information on how I work, as well as a free guide to releasing the beliefs that have been holding you back. I look forward to connecting with you. Love and light Again.

Speaker 1:

What does come up is how powerfully it's working towards solutions prevents people from not wanting to let go of the blame is that that pride card of not wanting to do that, first releasing of, of of needing to be right, but also more. There tends to be this we tell ourselves these stories to keep us safe and it's that triggered state of being to keep us safe which, again, as you would say, the need is to be safe. But even looking within to learn that that's what we're trying to do is another way of keeping us safe, if that makes sense. It's so many layers of safety that we don't want to necessarily know what those needs are.

Speaker 2:

This is complicated.

Speaker 1:

It's complicated.

Speaker 2:

I just am really glad because there's a couple of things. One is because we are pack animals, we need each other to survive Although it seems like we don't, we actually do. And so evolutionarily our safety mattered by being part of the tribe. And so my need for contribution, my need to matter, my need for belonging, if people are upset, if you just guess those three, like if you talk to them, like they're scared that they're going to get kicked out of the pack.

Speaker 2:

If I can't contribute to the pack, I will like back in the day, my hard wiring, my biochemistry is designed to have me freak out. Yeah, because if I'm alone out there in the frozen tundra, I will not make it. If I have my tribe, you know we all take care of each other. Tundra, I will not make it. If I have my tribe, you know we all take care of each other. We live in a modern world where I really this is where autonomy and independence get confused because we don't. It is not safe If you, if I, can't contribute to you. So this gets complicated in our relationships, why we need to say thank you so that the other person will know that they contribute, but that I can know it's very hard sometimes for me to feel calm because I am actually safe, even though my body is saying I'm not Right Because, let's say, in my relationship that I've had, we don't live together.

Speaker 2:

If he left me, I'd be sad. There'd be lots of needs that wouldn't get met, but one of them wouldn't be my safety. I pay my own bills. My life would go on. There's lots of things that I would lose and I like to distinguish as much as we can, because there are cultures that actually aren't safe right now. But let's just say, most of us say when we're talking to each other I want to be safe to talk to you, and what that means is I don't want to feel my feelings. So if you say something I don't like, I call that not safe and it's just like no, that means I'm making you responsible for my well-being and it's like whatever you want.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad that you brought that up because that I think that is such a powerful way of seeing what our own inner safety is is that ability to be able to express our feelings rather than feeling unsafe. Very well said. Anyway, I apologize for interrupting, because that was beautiful, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And no, it's great because it's like well, am I strong enough? Am I powerful enough to hear you disagree with me about something that's super important to me? This is where the crux of what we're talking about. How do you and I talk about things we don't agree on and stay connected, not lose our connection and make powerful choices? So when I'm doing couples coaching, my job is not to keep the couple together, and NVC, which is also called, or nonviolent communication, which is also called compassionate communication.

Speaker 2:

People sometimes think and they hear me say I'm not responsible for your feelings and you're not responsible for mine. It's like we don't get to say anything we want. This is about how do we navigate life, how do we navigate conflict in a way that is again full of curiosity and respect, and then dive into and make choices about the relationship that serves us the best. So let's say we're partners and we've been partners for 10 years, and now 10 years have passed and I'm interested in this and you're interested in, and we may not be partners anymore. We may not.

Speaker 2:

Most couples get together because we're cute or something and we, you know, we, we live in a house, we decide to live together and we do not have the conversations about. Do we eat dinner together? Do we just make assumptions based on the cultural reality? And now it's like I find again, I want wait a minute. You're not going to come to bed at nine o'clock with me, what's that? Or we're not eating dinner together, what's that? We just didn't talk about it Because we were in love and we got married, or we just decided to live together.

Speaker 2:

Well, how do we talk about it now that it's a thing? Or your clothes are all over the living room floor and I'm insisting that you pick them up, because order is important to me. You don't even see the clothes on the floor. Because order is important to me, you don't even see the clothes on the floor. So you picking up your own clothes as a strategy to meet my need for order is probably not going to work, because you're going to pick up the one sock and leave the other four because you don't even see them, and I see all the socks and the pieces of dirt around them. And so, again, what strategies could I make for order in my home without demanding that you do something that you? It's almost impossible for you to do?

Speaker 1:

Love it. I love it because you are giving the other person the autonomy in order to be to be the person that can't see the socks, and as someone who often rarely can't see the socks, I appreciate that you know, and there's probably many ways to meet order, yes, and, and it's, but at the same time you're creating the, the environment where, because those communicate, that communication is taking place, then the strategies can be put in place without that blame and without the anger and without the conflict.

Speaker 1:

The other that comes up, though and this is something that that I'll often tell clients that I work with, that of of there's a sense of firing people from these roles.

Speaker 2:

It seems like the roles and expectations that we bring into these relationships, they need to be disregarded can you find your autonomy inside the relationship is what I like to ask people, because sometimes they feel burdened. Because, again, it's this you know, in our time together we're not going to unpack all of it, but I have it that it's your fault that my house is a mess. Yeah, yeah, right, I'm finding blame, but it's also you know. So now you're that person. That person is real. They're in their own home too, and they can't live the life that they, you know. They just want freedom to leave their socks wherever they want them.

Speaker 2:

And so how do we talk about that? How do we navigate where it's like oh yeah, how do I even care? Because I have it that I'm right, the house should be tidy. And you have it that I'm right, the house should be tidy. And you have it that, like, what, like, who has time for that? I have a busy life, I have other things that I track on, I don't want to be picking up socks, it doesn't matter to me. And so there's all kinds of ways to have a tidy home. It's like do we have enough money to hire someone to tidy it up? Will you care, will you be the tidier? And I'll take this other thing on that, you know, so that you have the time and the freedom to be the tidier. Do you have to be mad at me? Does it have? You know? It's all this stuff.

Speaker 1:

You know even just that one sentence. Do you have to be mad at me?

Speaker 2:

Right, that's blame. Anger is something outside of you.

Speaker 1:

What a great way to interrupt conflict.

Speaker 2:

Well, the way that I see conflict is conflict is new information coming into the system when we don't make room for the conflict, where I say you should be neat, right, so I've just discovered that you should not throw your socks on the floor. If I'm not willing to make room for that conversation, then it becomes violent, then it becomes blame. But the conflict is you don't we're of a difference of opinion. You think socks should be on the floor and I think they shouldn't. That's conflict. There's no argument until we argue and until I make room for who you are and who I am, and then let's talk about it without being mad at each other. What are our options here?

Speaker 1:

beautiful beautiful because what it, what it disengages, is the energy behind the. Well, I was raised to have the socks put away tightly, neatly, and you know my mother was raised to have the time and it I know that it is right by like historic proof that that's the way this should be and there must be something wrong with you for having them on the floor. And and you, it disengages that whole conversation and actually leads into the word that you used earlier of curiosity, of being like. So I'm curious.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, their needs matter equal to mine and we forget that. Yes, ah, what do you need? Well, I need some freedom. I need you know, I need time. I need you know, I want you to care about me. Like again, one of the things when we get upset is am I actually caring about this somebody else and with, whether it's a partner or or kids? You know, we make random rules for our kids and try to get them to follow them, rather than say how do we navigate this, even at two and three and four. If they're getting raised up that way, they'll learn how to navigate. Yeah, I think they'll be in a much better place as adults to navigate time with other people than possibly we have learned in our young lives. And so we struggle with other people.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and I could talk to you about this all day long. I will tell you, it's very easy to do, okay. So knowing your own needs has to be the first step actually becoming curious to look within yourself and ask yourself about your own needs. Now, say you're in a partnership. How do you introduce this within a partnership, or how do you actually any relationship? No, any relationship. How do you introduce this when you have the person shouting at you because their needs aren't being met? How do you find that bridge?

Speaker 2:

Well, I ask this a lot. The first thing is for me to be responsible for myself. So someone is upset with me now right.

Speaker 2:

And I'm the socker, I'm the one leaving the socks. Or let's say, we both liked vanilla ice cream. All of a sudden, I've tasted chocolate and now I want chocolate ice cream in my freezer and we only have room for one pint of ice cream a week and you're upset about it and it's like how dare you Like what's going on? You know like you're betraying me, right? Well, betraying is not something I can do me, right? Well, betraying isn't not something I can do what I. So remember I was talking about observation. I can't when I say you've betrayed me, or when you say to me you've betrayed me, you're telling me that I've done something like what did I actually say? Or do? It's like oh, I've changed the flavor of ice cream.

Speaker 2:

When I I noticed that you liked, when I saw chocolate ice cream in the freezer, I felt sad and scared. I'm really wanting some understanding and I'm wondering will you tell me how that got in there? We've always agreed that vanilla was our flavor, and so I'm feeling a little bit afraid and curious about what's happening here, rather than what's really happening is. I'm afraid that you met someone and they like chocolate, and you're gonna leave me and I don't even know it, right, right, um, all of us. You know again, this is a silly example, but that does happen. It's like, well, I'm really afraid that you went to lunch with Mary Beth and you didn't invite me again.

Speaker 2:

Unpack animals, my need for belonging and to matter and to to have some assurance that you care. And so when the um, when the so, but you're like, how dare you say I can't have chocolate ice cream. And I'm like, um, or you're saying that to me and I would just say, listen, it's, let's say you're just saying I can't believe there's chocolate ice cream in there. The hell is going on. What's wrong with you? We've always been in agreement and you didn't even ask. And it's like, so my response to you in a needs-based conversation is wow, this sounds really important to you, right? So sometimes, so even with kids, it sounds like this is important. You seem very upset and I really care and I want to understand better what about this is important to you hmm, what about it?

Speaker 2:

it's like, well, you're eating chocolate ice cream. I've never done that before. It's like, ah, the change. Maybe you're a little bit nervous about how I found the ice cream. Like, what part about this is what you want me to hear? And so there are ways that I can start to ask for the need without saying can you tell me what your needs are? Because people don't know what their needs are.

Speaker 2:

My dad, he never knew what the needs are, but I could listen. For that it's like, oh, he is saying that I, you know. Here's a real example Like you'll never listen to me, terry. And when I ended up, when I learned this work was like, wow, that person loves me, he cares about me, and that is the words he is using is he's saying I care about you and I love you and I want you to be well in the world.

Speaker 2:

That is, even though what he said was you'll never listen to me or you'll never get it. But what he's actually saying underneath that is I care deeply about you and I want you to thrive. And if I can just hear that, yeah, marshall rosenberg, who developed the work of nbc, said you'll never hear another complaint and you'll never hear another criticism If you're translating the jackal thoughts, the thoughts, the assessments of stuff, the hurt and the pain and the criticism If I can translate it fast enough I'll never hear it. I'll just hear the precious needs underneath what they're saying and at the beginning I'm like no way, that is not true.

Speaker 1:

And now it's true, it is 100% true, and I know that, even without this work, that I can experience that. Now, something that some people have brought up to me, and I want to just throw this out there before we wrap this up, because I think it's just an important thing for people listening to this Sometimes, or what people have said to me, it's like yes, but then sometimes that is condoning an abusive relationship, or that is condoning abusive behavior, or that is condoning the narcissist, and so therefore, you're always so. I think it's important just for anyone listening to this that they understand the approach of that, because otherwise, in some situations, it's easy to make excuses.

Speaker 2:

So Well, this is this again, like I'm saying it is. This is the powerful work. Are we willing? Because if I live with somebody who does not care about me or who is unable to write because of their history, right, so yeah, I want to give it the college try, and then it's my job to meet my own needs. So if you want to hit me over the baseball bat, I'll die for your right to do that. Not to me. I'm out, so it's.

Speaker 2:

How do I become responsible to meet my own needs? It is my job, not yours, and I think that people stay in relationships that are not pleasant over and over again because I ask you over will you pick up the socks? Oh yeah. Will you pick up the socks? Oh yeah, and you never do, and so I stay mad at you. We're both resigned and resentful, and I'm not willing to say you know what. I will die for your right to leave your socks wherever you want them.

Speaker 2:

I don't want to live in a house with socks on the floor, and so I'm going to opt out. We will be friends forever. Let's go to dinner. You can have socks on your own living room floor, and even. Here's the thing if I'm in partnership again, I've been in partnership for 23 years we don't live together. If you want cleanliness, like why not have different homes, you can try the strategies, but in terms of the setting limits and again, I know our time is limited but rather than setting boundaries, which is focused outside, you must do this, you must do this, you must obey my rules. It's setting my own limits. I will do this for three weeks and if you don't stop doing it, I would like to be in a different. I'd like to renegotiate a relationship into something wildly different. And because I don't want this.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and acknowledging your needs is truly the way that you take your power back, and if you are in something that's incredibly toxic, then your needs aren't being met. So, therefore, sometimes, if you can't communicate in a certain way, you have to communicate within yourself, like what you said at the beginning when we started talking about the relationship within yourself. Which is we gonna have to have that as another project? Yes, it is my job to meet my needs, not yours, because really, all these strategies is in that relationship as well, where you actually communicate with yourself on your own needs yeah, and and then yeah, and people are that's the tough one, you know shifting a partnership relationship into either co-parenting or just friends, or you know.

Speaker 2:

But we stay until we hate each other. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And because we are looking for other people to fulfill the needs. Oh, that's powerful. That amazing, amazing, amazing this. This has been a fantastic conversation. I want everyone to know how to find you. What is your website? Again?

Speaker 2:

I can't remember. It's wwwgetbacktolifeorg T-O, not the number. So, getbacktolifeorg, I have a blog you can sign up for that. I write, you know, once a week, once every other week, something like that all kinds of free resources up there and so that's where you can find me.

Speaker 1:

Amazing, all right. Well, we'll have all those links in the show notes, and I want to thank you again. This has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you, all right. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

I really appreciate this conversation.

Speaker 1:

I appreciate it too, Thank you.